Curse

Neo-LD · Mar 02, 2008, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

This post needs to get all possible support, and to be rubbed in Izzy's nose with undebatable evidence that this is the right thing to do.

I agree. It would certainly be great if the pvp community embraced this as a kind of manifesto.

Monk Gsb · Mar 02, 2008, 11:57 PM // 23:57

why not just say:

i'm gonna save some time by not repeating other ppl on the GvG and AT idears. but baisicaly, revert meta to what it was 1 year + ago ( b4 nf power creep) ? but, was nice to read ^^ good post

Kaon · Mar 02, 2008, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monk Gsb

why not just say:

i'm gonna save some time by not repeating other ppl on the GvG and AT idears. but baisicaly, revert meta to what it was 1 year + ago ( b4 nf power creep) ? but, was nice to read ^^ good post

Because actually DOING it requires concrete information and plans.

Cirian · Mar 03, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

He said 5e OR 3s KD. So 5e means you can run it on a warrior, 3s KD basically means mesmers will also use it and it becomes a really strong skill again.

The current Gale is really good with Glyph of Energy as it is. I quite like the 3s knockdown going to Meteor idea actually, that gives it quite a bit of character and honestly a 3s ranged knockdown shouldn't be spammable like Gale is. At least with Shock Warriors, the 3s knockdowns are limited to short bursts that force them to get in close and exhaust them for the next minute.

On the Boonprot front, I'm glad they're dead. I prefer the current range of monks.

Shadow Steps need aftercast.

Dervish quick activation attacks need aftercast. It's like ranger spike all over again at the moment, but with teleporting dervishes.

Necros need more utility and less spike. Especially in Blood.

I need sleep... zzzzzzzzz

moriz · Mar 03, 2008, 12:14 AM // 00:14

unfortunately, anet is not going to undo the changes they made to the game over the past year and a half. that's just /fail in a business point of view.

on the gaming front, while i agree that the game was better the way it was before, now it is far to late too go about and nerfing everything back the way it was before. the game has progressed well beyond the point of turning back. to force the game back into the pre-NF, pre-Factions state is like destroying all the cars in the world, and forcing people to ride horses like they did before. sure horses are technically better for the world than gasoline cars, but no one will ever go without one.

the only thing that we can do is to accept that the game has progress in a different direction compared to the Prophecies meta. as Wally said in a post i cannot find anymore, the game has progressed opposite to the highly interdependent, greater-than-the-sum-of-its-parts build meta. the game now emphasizes builds that work well in a group, and work even better when split off into smaller pieces. i'm not the most eloquent person, but i think this style of play does have some merit, and i would like it to continue for a little while longer.

Greedy Gus · Mar 03, 2008, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the only thing that we can do is to accept that the game has progress in a different direction compared to the Prophecies meta.

Negative, anything is possible. I've merely attempted to draw up a basic (but reasoned) roadmap to returning GvG to its best form by taking an objective look at the past 3 years, for Izzy or A.net should they choose to undertake that challenge.

DutchSmurf · Mar 03, 2008, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Negative, anything is possible. I've merely attempted to draw up a basic (but reasoned) roadmap to returning GvG to its best form by taking an objective look at the past 3 years, for Izzy or A.net should they choose to undertake that challenge.

Since that roadmap includes a major rework of the paragon (and a little less of the assassin), it might not be impossible, but it is close. Why would Anet undertake this challenge? They have a far better challenge to work on, one that is actually going to give them money in return. While they are working on that, we will get skillbalances. But I really doubt they are going to do the amount of work needed on the paragon. Just like I doubt Izzy is wanting to do the work needed on the assassin.
Just look at the paragon, how are you ever going to balance that one properly without spending many resources on it? Removal (or overnerfing) isn't an option. It might be for us PvP people, but not for a business like Anet. So far I haven't seen a viable way to do it. Without a viable way to address paragons (and some other things), any attempt to bring the game back to a more interesting state is bound to fail. Without a viable solution, this thread is just as useless as some of the other threads we had lately about balance. So while I compliment Greedy Gus on his post, it won't change anything.

What we need is a thread about how to fix the paragon without removing it. If we can do that, we can safe the game. If we can't, we will have to do with smaller changes. For a solution to work, it has to be something Anet would be willing to do, not something we would love most.

Boogz · Mar 03, 2008, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

I have no problems making Core/Prophecies skills the dominant force again. Try playing a Prophecies only scrimmage if you have some friendly guilds who are interested, it really is much more fun.

Remember when A-net did the Factions only tournament? Why not treat the expansions like that always? One month all the ATs and mAT will be prophecies only, next month core/factions only and next core/nightfall only. How about a mAT where the elimination rounds are done Seal Deck?

"Limited" formats work in pretty much every competitive card game. In Magic the Gathering, most tournament formats are either some form of sealed deck or draft, or constructed formats based on a limited pool of sets to draw from. I don't believe the Vintage (every card ever made allowed from any set) has ever been played on the Pro Tour, and not just for cost reasons.

I think "unlimited" play in Guild Wars should be relegated to HA and ladder GVGs. High end GVG play ought to be about alternative formats that challenge guilds' abilities to create new, unconventional builds. Not to mention, since you will only have a mAT for a particular format once every 4 months at best, you don't have to worry about the meta getting stale.

Additionally, this will help for individual skill balance, as Izzy will have 3+ months to figure out how to balance a degenerate skill. Lets say a Factions only mAT is absolutely dominated by one build, Izzy will have several months to implement a tested, balanced solution to the issue before it is a problem again.

i love your idea of "proph/factions/nightfall" only tournaments , wish that they were able to normal GvGs also , and there could be some format that would not allow the use of secondary profession skills , it would be really fun :/

pah01 · Mar 03, 2008, 01:30 AM // 01:30

signed in blood.

Relambrien · Mar 03, 2008, 01:37 AM // 01:37

For what it's worth, these ideas also have my support.

It would be nice if someone could talk to Izzy in person and bring his attention to this thread, so that we know for certain he's seen it. Obviously, I'm not saying to harass him, but you get the idea.

Greedy Gus · Mar 03, 2008, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

But I really doubt they are going to do the amount of work needed on the paragon. Just like I doubt Izzy is wanting to do the work needed on the assassin.
Just look at the paragon, how are you ever going to balance that one properly without spending many resources on it? Removal (or overnerfing) isn't an option. It might be for us PvP people, but not for a business like Anet. So far I haven't seen a viable way to do it. Without a viable way to address paragons (and some other things), any attempt to bring the game back to a more interesting state is bound to fail.

Well I think they set the correct precedent with spirit rits a few months after factions. It's easier to spot a bad design flaw and steer away from it when it's defense-oriented (slows down gameplay), but harder to spot and easier to allow if it's more offense-based. The problem is that the offense paragons are capable of bringing isn't really replacing some other option, but redefining the balanced build structure and leads to more defensive gameplay paradoxically.

For how viable it is to make pvp paragons (as we know them) disappear in GvG, there are probably countless ways of accomplishing it. Most PvE players think paragons are terrible anyway, and the ones who understand their power and abuse it run fairly different builds than PvP bars (ironically, often leaning more on team utility shouts). Surely Izzy could put together a fairly simple balance that accomplishes the goals stated in the OP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relambrien

It would be nice if someone could talk to Izzy in person and bring his attention to this thread, so that we know for certain he's seen it. Obviously, I'm not saying to harass him, but you get the idea.

It's been mentioned to me that Izzy and possibly some others in league with balancing have seen the post and appreciate the time/effort spent to clearly lay it out.

ax mastery · Mar 03, 2008, 02:16 AM // 02:16

I really like the limited suggestions on the necro class, especially reworking blood into a split class. Possibly make it a half degen half healing support line focused on splitting. Also, far too many skills are devoted to solely damage dealing in the line, imo.

Maybe rework some skills like:
----Blood bond (10en/1c/10r): For 10...40 seconds, target other ally and other non-caster allies enchanted with Blood Bond share equally any regeneration and health gain that would otherwise affect the caster. If cast on yourself, all effects of this spell are terminated. (Terrible wording, but basically what im going for is instead of your life stealing spells affecting only you, you can choose to spread it among whoever you want, and when needed make them only affect you again.)

----Dark Pact (8%sac/1en/0c/2r): For 3...8 seconds, target foe moves 20% slower and you move 20% faster. If cast on ally, that ally recieves the speed buff and duration of any buff currently affecting you, and the effect of that buff on you ends.

----Demonic Flesh (5%sac/1en/.25c/8r): For 5...10 seconds, target ally steals 5...15 health from the attacker whenever hit by a physical attack.

----Shadow Strike (5en/.25c/12r): Interrupt spell. If a spell was interupted, remove Weapon Spell from target foe or that foe suffers 5 health degeneration, and you recieve 5 health regeneration for 5...8 seconds.

Those are just some basic thoughts to get people thinking on how to change the blood line from a boring or degenerate line into something useful in a gvg setting.

Greedy Gus · Mar 03, 2008, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogz

basically , you want to kill every single skill from the other campaigns and bring back boonprot.

I guess this needs a response, seeing as how people keep spamming the sentiment for some reason. I really question whether people actually read the opening post if you say this. There are exactly 8 skill nerfs called for, on the cornerstones of power creep: 6 from nightfall and 2 from prophecies (and 3 of which may not be necessary). Also 2 out of the 4 new classes are pointed out as having design flaws (in relation to healthy GvG), but are noted to be salvageable. So surely we can cut the hyperbole?

Foe · Mar 03, 2008, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Good post, obviously specific suggestions will be debated but i think there is a consensus among players that some post nf class mechanics should be addressed. Para dps is pretty absurd and the fact that a class speced as a defensive "buffer" w/ great independent survivability can also assist the spike w/ such high dmg low cost skills defies logic. Sins are the "glass cannons" of gw, all mmos have something similar be it a "dagger" rogue" etc..Hard hitting dmg/softness is how it goes, the battle in other games is getting yourself into position to execute these devastating chains. Shaddow stepping in general is bad for the game. I dont think ne one expects to see things "fixed", the question is do you think its lesson learned on anets side or is gw2 a continuation of the current "direction".

Monk Gsb · Mar 03, 2008, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Because actually DOING it requires concrete information and plans.

but we all know deep down a-net wont make the changes i mean seriously, totaly revamping some of the factions / nf would have came in the Alph/Beta testing stages of factions and nf, not MONTHS after they are released.

Zabe · Mar 03, 2008, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

wow, it would be really boring. late '06 - early '07 was better

Insta gib sins and searinglames farming with thumpers? O I C WUT U DID THAR!

And seriously to the post. Andrew, get this post to the balance team and bang this to their heads.

yesitsrob · Mar 03, 2008, 08:11 AM // 08:11

This is an excellent post and would make the game amazing if it actually happened. Sadly I'm pretty sure it won't and I think the closest we could get to such would be if they introduced limited formats. ATs with Proph only, Core + Factions etc... while the game wouldn't be fully what it used to be it would add something and as far as I can tell would probably take a lot less time than them fully reworking certain classes (Which I just cannot see them doing and working on GW2 at the same time).

Quote:

Insta gib sins and searinglames farming with thumpers? O I C WUT U DID THAR!

and hexes and jagged bones >_< - pretty sure it was early 07 when they dominated

tigros · Mar 03, 2008, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Honestly I don't see Anet moving backwards on the game evolution path... Yes, there will be skill balances, skills reverted to some previous status, but in an overall and general direction, the game will move forward.

If we consider that there might not be any expansions or new skills included in the GW1 series, the only way to move forward is to rework skills in such a way that they will disrupt the current metagame and shift into a totally new direction (as it happened recently with the split focus). In the end, disruption is the way to move forward (evolve), be it in technology (for example), or in a game like this.

We still have 1-2 years until GW2 will be out and some more years after that for GW until it might fade out... if you think on a let's say 5 years plan, imagine what the game would look like if any balance that would be reached will become a de facto for a long period of time.

In let's say a year (though I predict sooner), people will get bored with a stagnant balance. There's only so many combinations of good skills that you could come up with (and if you read what people want, you can get a pretty good idea what those skills are and even work out the builds that will be used with those skills) and people will get bored with them and would want something new...

This is what Anet is actually doing currently, introducing the "new" in an "old" game. Look at how much debate all these balances create, how much passion, how much interest, how much love & hate. These are the feelings that keep people interested in the game, despite the fact that a lot might say they won't play the game anymore.

In the end, I think that all the proposed skill changes are positive, as long as they promote a new style of play and a new metagame. If you look in perspective, it is about playing new & different styles and think about the game in a different way.

As Darwin said, the species that will survive are not the strongest/best ones... but the most adaptable ones...

Kaon · Mar 03, 2008, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monk Gsb

but we all know deep down a-net wont make the changes i mean seriously, totaly revamping some of the factions / nf would have came in the Alph/Beta testing stages of factions and nf, not MONTHS after they are released.

If that is the case then we should never ever post balance threads again. This is the only option that will improve the game. Take it or leave it. As I said the changes are only little effort, it's the point of view that needs to change.

It's very simple: Convince Izzy that this is the right way to go instead of nerfing what's most used and buffing random skills each time. It's not less work and will considerably improve the game. Izzy is a nice guy and I trust that he'll finally see the point. I don't question izzy's personality at all, merely his intellect.

It is pretty clear that anyone with a little insight in the game can see that these changes will improve the game more than anything else we've ever had in guild wars. Izzy's listened to us before, why would he not in this screaming matter?

So either you support this thread or GTFO and never post in balance threads again, ever.

DutchSmurf · Mar 03, 2008, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

For how viable it is to make pvp paragons (as we know them) disappear in GvG, there are probably countless ways of accomplishing it. Most PvE players think paragons are terrible anyway, and the ones who understand their power and abuse it run fairly different builds than PvP bars (ironically, often leaning more on team utility shouts). Surely Izzy could put together a fairly simple balance that accomplishes the goals stated in the OP.

Depends on how big the problem is. If it can be fixed with a nerf to Aggressive Refrain, then yes. If it will require more work, it is going to be hard. And I think it is going to require more work. After the last years I'm not so sure if Izzy can put together a simple balance. I think that if we really want the paragon (and the assassin) fixed, we better write it down for him. But if I see his opinion on the wiki at some points....